Tue Jun 4 23:32:56 2002-general-||||||||| Julianna just entered this chat
Tue Jun 4 23:33:03 2002-general-||||||||| Julia just entered this chat
Tue Jun 4 23:33:05 2002-general-Julianna: Are we the only ones?
Tue Jun 4 23:33:23 2002-general-||||||||| Julia just entered this chat
Tue Jun 4 23:33:25 2002-general-Julianna: Hey Julia! I am so excited that you are "chatting" with us today.
Tue Jun 4 23:33:39 2002-general-||||||||| molly just entered this chat
Tue Jun 4 23:33:47 2002-general-Julia: Hi julianna and Cindy
Tue Jun 4 23:33:57 2002-general-molly: Hi
Tue Jun 4 23:34:03 2002-general-Cindy: sorry
Tue Jun 4 23:34:06 2002-general-Julianna: Cindy says hi back
Tue Jun 4 23:34:07 2002-general-Cindy: i gotta find my articles
Tue Jun 4 23:34:20 2002-general-Julianna: MOLLY! I am so glad that you could make it (I guess I am now the official greeter)
Tue Jun 4 23:35:20 2002-general-Cindy: okay, i'm back!!
Tue Jun 4 23:35:22 2002-general-Cindy: and ready to chat
Tue Jun 4 23:35:43 2002-general-||||||||| Mery just entered this chat
Tue Jun 4 23:35:51 2002-general-Cindy: just so you know, julianna, molly, and i have to leave at 5:30 for a group meeting for our presentation on fair trade coffee tomorrow
Tue Jun 4 23:35:56 2002-general-Cindy: hi mery!
Tue Jun 4 23:36:14 2002-general-Mery: Hey everyone!!
Tue Jun 4 23:36:34 2002-general-Julia: Julianna, do you agree with the critical stance trhat Paul Krugman has wuįith respect to Bush international economic policy?
Tue Jun 4 23:36:54 2002-general-Cindy: okay, so who else is signed up for today?
Tue Jun 4 23:37:16 2002-general-Julianna: Mery -- I am looking for your pic on the website but am not finding your name. What is your full name?
Tue Jun 4 23:37:28 2002-general-molly: Hi, Mery
Tue Jun 4 23:37:48 2002-general-Mery: María Irigoyen
Tue Jun 4 23:38:06 2002-general-Mery: are your pictures up?
Tue Jun 4 23:38:10 2002-general-Julianna: Julia -- are you asking me what I think of Bush's economic policy or that of Krugman? Are you asking for my comment on protectionism?
Tue Jun 4 23:38:25 2002-general-Mery: Hi Molly
Tue Jun 4 23:38:37 2002-general-||||||||| Melanie just entered this chat
Tue Jun 4 23:38:50 2002-general-Julianna: Mery - where in DC did you live? I too lived there!
Tue Jun 4 23:38:56 2002-general-Melanie: Hello!
Tue Jun 4 23:39:00 2002-general-Julianna: Hi Melania!
Tue Jun 4 23:39:01 2002-general-Mery: Hello Mel!!
Tue Jun 4 23:39:05 2002-general-Cindy: hi melanie!
Tue Jun 4 23:39:10 2002-general-Julianna: Oops -- Melanie.
Tue Jun 4 23:39:41 2002-general-Melanie: It's ok
Tue Jun 4 23:40:03 2002-general-Melanie: how is everyone?
Tue Jun 4 23:40:09 2002-general-Julia: Yes, I want to know what do you think of the tariffs on imported steel and on the violation of trade agreements by Bush.
Tue Jun 4 23:40:10 2002-general-Cindy: hi hi!
Tue Jun 4 23:40:15 2002-general-Cindy: someone get to ask me a question too
Tue Jun 4 23:40:16 2002-general-Julianna: About protectionism... I understand the worker's response to wanting their market protected. I come from a small town where this is the prevailing idea. Complete Free Trade doesn't seem to be the answer either ...
Tue Jun 4 23:41:10 2002-general-Mery: Julianna, where are you from?
Tue Jun 4 23:41:14 2002-general-Julianna: So, where coutnries are in violation of international trade agreements because of high environmental, labor, or other standards, I do NOT agree. I am not quite sure what the answer is though
Tue Jun 4 23:42:12 2002-general-Julianna: The question becomes... Do we restrict trade in terms of rights of those laborers, etc? Or do we instead just allow trading wherever, whenever, thinking that in the end, it will all work out.
Tue Jun 4 23:42:43 2002-general-Cindy: it's understandable that the government also feels that it needs to protect it's own country's interests, but one must also keep in mind that this "interest" may have been instilled through extensive lobbying...
Tue Jun 4 23:42:56 2002-general-Julianna: I guess I am more a fan of a balanced approach whereby there are some restricitions but where protectionism does not play a huge role.
Tue Jun 4 23:43:10 2002-general-Cindy: it's pretty evident that a completely free market isn't always the solution
Tue Jun 4 23:43:24 2002-general-Julia: Cindy, nd what about the foreign policy of the administration bush, do you approve it? what are your perceptions?
Tue Jun 4 23:43:43 2002-general-Cindy: but protectionism is also very dangerous, espcially when it leads to a chain reaction from other countries who also throw up barriers in response
Tue Jun 4 23:43:43 2002-general-Mery: It also has to be taken into account the possible violation of interna
Tue Jun 4 23:43:45 2002-general-Julianna: Mery -- I am from a small town in Eastern Washington, next to the Canadian and Idaho borders. It is relatively far from anything. The main industry there is logging
Tue Jun 4 23:43:59 2002-general-Julianna: I agree Cindy!
Tue Jun 4 23:44:03 2002-general-Cindy: julia--is this more in response to the second article from the new yorker?
Tue Jun 4 23:44:12 2002-general-Melanie: I do not know the answer bu7t there seems to be a contradiction between the stand taken by the USA at the WTO and the protectionist policies it undertakes internally
Tue Jun 4 23:44:18 2002-general-Mery: sorry...of vialoting international agreements
Tue Jun 4 23:44:19 2002-general-Julianna: What do you three (or are there four of you?) think about the article and protectionism in general?
Tue Jun 4 23:44:22 2002-general-||||||||| Melanie just entered this chat
Tue Jun 4 23:44:34 2002-general-Julianna: Molly -- are you alive?
Tue Jun 4 23:44:54 2002-general-Cindy: okay, before i say anything else about the bush administration...i feel the need to make it clear that i am biased, and my answers will be skewed, because i largely have a negative perception of bush
Tue Jun 4 23:44:54 2002-general-Julia: Cindy, yes it's from the second article
Tue Jun 4 23:45:14 2002-general-Julianna: Where is your red and white striped shirt? (Sorry -- joke b/.t us silly Americans) It is in reference to "where's waldo"...
Tue Jun 4 23:45:30 2002-general-Cindy: i think perhaps a lot of actions by the bush administration is also an attempt to separate itself from the clinton administration...
Tue Jun 4 23:45:43 2002-general-molly: yes. I feel that the rights of laborers need to be taken account of.
Tue Jun 4 23:45:53 2002-general-Melanie: What is the general perception?
Tue Jun 4 23:46:01 2002-general-Cindy: WTO and many other trade agreements were made under Clinton
Tue Jun 4 23:46:04 2002-general-Julianna: Mel - well, when you have a guy like Bush as President, things are bound to not make much sense!
Tue Jun 4 23:46:16 2002-general-Cindy: whereas many of the new administrative policies are being passed by Bush (the protectionist ones)
Tue Jun 4 23:46:20 2002-general-Julia: Cindy, I very interested in the foreign policy of Bush because i will do my thesis of the foreign policy of Bush and Clinton in the Midddle East.
Tue Jun 4 23:46:49 2002-general-Cindy: after the september 11th aftermath, as well, there's a greater incentive to announce your intentions to "protect national interests", be it in security, economics, etc
Tue Jun 4 23:47:10 2002-general-Julianna: Again, I have to echo Cindy. First of all, I am not a fan of Bush. Secondly, his administration is working hard to be the "Bush Administration" rather than "the administration that came after CLinton and screwed everything up
Tue Jun 4 23:47:24 2002-general-Cindy: julia--cool!! what's your opinion about Bush's foreign policies in the middle east?
Tue Jun 4 23:47:34 2002-general-molly: Also becasue of September 11th it is now justifiable to look out for our interests
Tue Jun 4 23:47:38 2002-general-Melanie: Do you mean a more unilateral view?
Tue Jun 4 23:48:02 2002-general-Julianna: Julia -- What have you found so far? Or have you started?
Tue Jun 4 23:48:27 2002-general-Mery: i think that none of us are big Bush fans
Tue Jun 4 23:48:42 2002-general-Julianna: Melanie -- are more unilateral view from that of the USA?
Tue Jun 4 23:48:44 2002-general-Cindy: i also think that in regards to the second article, it seems like many ppl in the Bush administration are being hung up over grand ideological visions
Tue Jun 4 23:49:05 2002-general-Cindy: some of them are seeking a new, overarching ideology to base their strategies on...like a new containment policy
Tue Jun 4 23:49:35 2002-general-Cindy: while overarching visions are important, i feel that in this case, they're not being specific, and they're trying to use an approach where one medicine will cure all...
Tue Jun 4 23:49:41 2002-general-Mery: what do you thing aboyt that??
Tue Jun 4 23:49:48 2002-general-Julia: Firstly, he dismantles all the efforts made by Clinton in Camp David II, he disinvolvedup to the September attacks, whre he started to view Arafat as aterrorist and Sharon as an ally to destroy the PA leader.
Tue Jun 4 23:50:14 2002-general-Melanie: Do you believe the US goverment has been seeking for a substitute for Communism?
Tue Jun 4 23:50:27 2002-general-Cindy: it's similar to our earlier conversations about why liberalism and the IMF solutions aren't going to be viable in a single, uniformed solution for all situations
Tue Jun 4 23:50:40 2002-general-Mery: Do you think that when the policy planning report comes out, it will be presented like a new containment policy?
Tue Jun 4 23:50:54 2002-general-Cindy: i believe that the US is trying to regain it's "hegemony
Tue Jun 4 23:51:18 2002-general-Cindy: and it feels that for it to do so, it must defeat some major foe to show its muscle and trimuphantness
Tue Jun 4 23:51:24 2002-general-Cindy: is triumphantness a word?
Tue Jun 4 23:51:26 2002-general-Cindy: okay, victory.
Tue Jun 4 23:51:29 2002-general-Julianna: Melanie - I think that it is easier to find an enemy and then unite against that ONE enemy rather than trying to create peace. This seems to be a trend throughout history -- I may be overstating this one though! In addition, once you have one enemy, you
Tue Jun 4 23:51:33 2002-general-molly: I think it's will always be a problem. Deciding to go after a small part of a problem or an overarching vision. Also just because it is an overarching vision our country may have does not make it right.
Tue Jun 4 23:51:40 2002-general-Julia: Bush now feel he must intervene because his next step will be to overthrow Hussein, and for that he needs the arab support...
Tue Jun 4 23:51:49 2002-general-Julianna: can get others to rally around YOU and your cause more easily, much like what it seems Bush is doing.
Tue Jun 4 23:51:51 2002-general-Cindy: possibly, it's hard to say. but containment of WHO? that's the questions. terrorists? who? where?
Tue Jun 4 23:51:57 2002-general-Melanie: And that means finding an enemy?
Tue Jun 4 23:52:05 2002-general-Cindy: is saddam hussein included in this? or is he just another "evil" we have to rid ourselves of?
Tue Jun 4 23:52:18 2002-general-Cindy: i agree with julianna and molly
Tue Jun 4 23:52:50 2002-general-Melanie: How do you read the speech of the axis of evil?
Tue Jun 4 23:52:51 2002-general-Cindy: then it would require bush incorporating saddam and iraq in his war on terrorism....
Tue Jun 4 23:53:23 2002-general-Julia: Cindy , and what do you think of Bush intervention in the palestinian - arab conflict?
Tue Jun 4 23:53:53 2002-general-Mery: Do you think that the war on terrorism is an excuse to direct teh US foreign policy in order to fullfill itīs hegemonist ambitions?
Tue Jun 4 23:54:12 2002-general-Melanie: Don't you feel there is a tendency to include everything under the war against terrorism lately?
Tue Jun 4 23:54:27 2002-general-Cindy: julia--maybe this isn't answering the question completely, but i feel as if the palenstinian-israeli conflict has intensified because of bush's war on terrorism
Tue Jun 4 23:54:27 2002-general-Julianna: Mery - I would not rule it out as a reason.
Tue Jun 4 23:55:11 2002-general-Cindy: now that we've declared it okay to bomb the living crap out of a country and demolish their government to "protect our national interests" (eg. fight terrorism), it's very easy for israel now to say the same thing about palestine.
Tue Jun 4 23:55:14 2002-general-Julianna: Melanie -- again, this axis of evil stuff is just like what we did in other "wars" where our leaders framed the enemy as the dark, evil ones, making it easier to harm them.
Tue Jun 4 23:55:41 2002-general-Mery: Do you think these ambitions are imperialist??
Tue Jun 4 23:55:51 2002-general-Julia: Cindy, can you explain what do you mean whn you say that the awr against terrorism has intensied the palestinian arab conflict?
Tue Jun 4 23:56:12 2002-general-Julianna: melanie -- again, i agree. the incorporation of terrorism (and the fear of it) is a powerful tool that the bush administration is using
Tue Jun 4 23:56:13 2002-general-Melanie: But do you "buy" the speech?
Tue Jun 4 23:56:36 2002-general-Cindy: melanie--i don't think the US is using the war on terrorism as an excuse to fulfill its ambitions as the hegemon, but rather as a tool and a response.
Tue Jun 4 23:56:40 2002-general-||||||||| jonathan just entered this chat
Tue Jun 4 23:56:44 2002-general-Julianna: mery -- how do you define "imperialist"?
Tue Jun 4 23:56:51 2002-general-Julia: Do you mean that Sharon can destroy Arafat and the Palestinian -authority with the pretext of war against terorism?
Tue Jun 4 23:57:01 2002-general-Cindy: the need to rebuild US hegemony goes hand in hand with the war on terrorism...the fact that we were attacked on our own soil to beign with
Tue Jun 4 23:57:13 2002-general-Julianna: Mel - no. I don't.
Tue Jun 4 23:57:26 2002-general-jonathan: hi sorry i am late i was at this tutoring thing
Tue Jun 4 23:57:52 2002-general-Julia: Hi Jonathan
Tue Jun 4 23:58:20 2002-general-Mery: What do you think are the reasons for the US to expand itīs hegemonys- economic, ideologic?
Tue Jun 4 23:58:21 2002-general-jonathan: what are you guys talking about
Tue Jun 4 23:58:22 2002-general-Cindy: i can't quite explain, but i don't quite see being the hegemon as being imperialist.
Tue Jun 4 23:58:27 2002-general-Melanie: And the general oppinion?
Tue Jun 4 23:58:46 2002-general-Cindy: as a hegemon, you act to protect your interest, i feel that being imperialistic requires reaching out to extend the scope of your interests
Tue Jun 4 23:59:06 2002-general-Cindy: being a hegemon may require some imperialism though
Tue Jun 4 23:59:36 2002-general-Julianna: primarily economic reasons but then a close second (and somewhat interrelated) are the ideological values of :"freedom" "democracy" etc
Tue Jun 4 23:59:42 2002-general-Cindy: however, this isn't new then! we've been trying to tell others that our way of life and democracy is the best model, especially after the fall of the USSR!
Tue Jun 4 23:59:50 2002-general-Julia: Jonathan, perhaps you can explain me the phrase "Uncle Sam is not going to be Uncle Sap for these people"
Tue Jun 4 23:59:53 2002-general-Cindy: we have no economic interests in afghanistan
Wed Jun 5 00:00:01 2002-general-Mery: Thatīs my question, in your opinion, is the US seeking to protect itīs interests or does it intend to go further, using the war on terrrism as "an excuse"
Wed Jun 5 00:00:23 2002-general-Julianna: i think that when cindy says "we" she means "the USA" not necessarily us -- the poli sci class, right cindy?
Wed Jun 5 00:01:00 2002-general-Melanie: Don't you feel there is a double speech? War against terrorism, the expansion of democracy..
Wed Jun 5 00:01:13 2002-general-Cindy: oh, i see mery...ok, well, i think that the US is seeking to protect its interests first and foremost...and intention to go further and rebuild and expand their interests for a new, strengthened hegemony is a secondary goal.
Wed Jun 5 00:01:16 2002-general-Julianna: Mery -- I don't think that the USA is trying to "expand" ...
Wed Jun 5 00:01:31 2002-general-Cindy: democracies have never been claimed to be completely and utterly peaceful
Wed Jun 5 00:01:43 2002-general-Cindy: yeah, julianna has it right about the terminology
Wed Jun 5 00:02:06 2002-general-Cindy: the notion is that if we're all democractic and trade dependent, we won't fight with one another--> kantian
Wed Jun 5 00:02:18 2002-general-Julia: Julianna, do you agree with the report of Amnisty International that since the tower attacks, the violkation of human rights has increased in the US?
Wed Jun 5 00:02:21 2002-general-Cindy: but that doesn't stop democracies from being less war-like and fighting with non-democratic countries
Wed Jun 5 00:02:43 2002-general-Julianna: Cindy is right on... It might be a goal to be peaceful, but war is not ruled out in democracy
Wed Jun 5 00:02:50 2002-general-Melanie: What do you think about Rice's statement, thet the 11 of September helped clarify US foreign policy?
Wed Jun 5 00:03:40 2002-general-Cindy: i don't know the extent of these new human rights violations in the US, but i think it would be naive to think that there's less of a chance for the government to violate their citizen's rights now because they've regained some muscle and power and say
Wed Jun 5 00:03:43 2002-general-Julianna: Julia -- I was not aware that Amnesty had said that. It may have -- with the "war criminals" at Guantanamom Bay, Cuba. The USA is by no means innocent.
Wed Jun 5 00:03:44 2002-general-jonathan: i think sept 11 provided the administartion the impetus and rationale to pursue further hegmonistic goals
Wed Jun 5 00:03:52 2002-general-Cindy: i think rice is wrong.
Wed Jun 5 00:04:07 2002-general-Cindy: i still believe that the war on terrorism is not a clear foreign policy
Wed Jun 5 00:04:18 2002-general-Julianna: Mel - I agree with Rice here. It gave them a focus. Something that they might "succeed" at
Wed Jun 5 00:04:27 2002-general-Cindy: it's a "US needs to respond and retaliate" repsonse, and it's open ended.
Wed Jun 5 00:04:29 2002-general-jonathan: but it provides opportunities to pgo after Iraq etc
Wed Jun 5 00:04:38 2002-general-Julia: Jonathan, can you explain me the difference between imperial and imperialist that Haass makes?
Wed Jun 5 00:04:43 2002-general-Cindy: it's not like with iraq, bush sr. had a certain time limit and budget and constraints
Wed Jun 5 00:04:50 2002-general-Melanie: But do you think they are focusing?
Wed Jun 5 00:05:12 2002-general-Melanie: Don't you think the term terrorism is too vague to declare a war against it?
Wed Jun 5 00:05:14 2002-general-jonathan: was haas the nyt article
Wed Jun 5 00:05:43 2002-general-Julia: yes. jonathan
Wed Jun 5 00:06:02 2002-general-Cindy: i think before bush, clinton's adminstration had a more clear foreign policy, but largely because it dealt more with economic issues about free trade, not political warfare
Wed Jun 5 00:06:07 2002-general-Melanie: I believe the ambiguity of the term is allowing them to persue other wars under the same flag
Wed Jun 5 00:06:21 2002-general-Cindy: well, war against terrorism is like war against communism
Wed Jun 5 00:06:40 2002-general-Cindy: except with communism there were actually communist nation states like the USSR and cuba we could identify as a unit
Wed Jun 5 00:06:45 2002-general-Julianna: Mel -- oh. Yes, I agree with the ACTUAL problems of the policy -- it, the policy, is vauge. I thought you were asking if I felt that when Rice said that that it at least gave them something. They didn't seem to interested in furthering the policies and
Wed Jun 5 00:06:49 2002-general-Cindy: we can't do that with terrorism, they're based more on networks
Wed Jun 5 00:07:03 2002-general-Julianna: commitments of the Clinton adminstration and were reaching for a focus. Spet 11 gave that to them
Wed Jun 5 00:07:15 2002-general-Cindy: mel--i totally agree with you that the vagueness is going to allow them to pursue whatever the feel like adding in or altering
Wed Jun 5 00:07:35 2002-general-Cindy: i agree with julianna
Wed Jun 5 00:07:46 2002-general-Julia: sorry, jonathan, it the article of "letter from washington"
Wed Jun 5 00:07:51 2002-general-Mery: so, would you agree with Rice that this period is analogous to 1945, the period when the containmente doctrine took shape?
Wed Jun 5 00:08:22 2002-general-Cindy: they're trying to be clear and hard-lined, which i think will make them less flexible and adaptable to situations. of course, people may say that is just being like clinton and being wishy washy
Wed Jun 5 00:08:34 2002-general-jonathan: christ i was going crazy trying to find it
Wed Jun 5 00:08:35 2002-general-Cindy: i think that rice would like to frame it that way, but it's not
Wed Jun 5 00:08:39 2002-general-jonathan: hang on then
Wed Jun 5 00:08:47 2002-general-Cindy: like i said, communism could be identified in the form of nation states and people
Wed Jun 5 00:08:49 2002-general-Melanie: Rice is a sovietologist, I think she feels comfortable creating analogies
Wed Jun 5 00:09:13 2002-general-Cindy: but not terrorism...which spans many countries that are democractic/allies, etc. too many networks and different groups with different goals and different tactics
Wed Jun 5 00:09:38 2002-general-Cindy: mel, i agree
Wed Jun 5 00:09:51 2002-general-Cindy: it's easy to simply problems and draw analogies
Wed Jun 5 00:10:21 2002-general-Melanie: yes, terrorism, at first glance was difficult to frame under states, but now they have ,managed to identify terrorist states, to make the war more conventional.
Wed Jun 5 00:10:54 2002-general-Julia: Do you think the war against terrorism has a visible end, or will it continue as to serve to the hegemonic obsession?
Wed Jun 5 00:11:10 2002-general-Cindy: for example, many people during the vietnam war drew comparisons of why they shouldn't appease the communists to neville chamberlain's "mistake" of appeasing hitler, when things really can't be simplified as such
Wed Jun 5 00:11:34 2002-general-jonathan: julia i think its basically what we've been talking about, that he clearly believes the us must pursue a reasonably proactive "imperialist" policy, but cannot cross the line where we attempt to coerce everyone into our standards in an "imperialist" sense
Wed Jun 5 00:11:40 2002-general-Cindy: yes, but that doesn't mean that everyone in those terrorist states are terrorists.
Wed Jun 5 00:11:51 2002-general-Cindy: in fact, many of them aren't, and many of them don't support terrorism
Wed Jun 5 00:11:52 2002-general-jonathan: it seems to me that we are pretty close to the latter
Wed Jun 5 00:12:08 2002-general-Julianna: I don't see any end in sight for this new war -- similar problem to Vietnam. Where is the exit stratgey? This may be the thing that brings Bush down (and his brother too!)
Wed Jun 5 00:12:21 2002-general-jonathan: imperial i meant in the first
Wed Jun 5 00:12:30 2002-general-Cindy: while at least with communisms, in many countries it was brought in because of popular support
Wed Jun 5 00:12:37 2002-general-Cindy: i meant communist countries
Wed Jun 5 00:13:16 2002-general-Cindy: that, and the cold war system was bipolar, whereas we're not really in the same situation anymore
Wed Jun 5 00:13:23 2002-general-Julia: Jonathan , do you mean thay the us can not justify the use of force upon others only to prevent the rise of other super power?
Wed Jun 5 00:13:37 2002-general-Cindy: so i think that allows for what jonathan was saying...that it's easier for us to be more coercive
Wed Jun 5 00:13:50 2002-general-Julianna: Cindy is answering the door... hold on!
Wed Jun 5 00:13:56 2002-general-Mery: What does public opinion have to say about the war on terrorism?? has there been a change since september?
Wed Jun 5 00:14:03 2002-general-Melanie: Don't you feel that most of teh people that persue your foreign policy are too attached to realism?
Wed Jun 5 00:14:20 2002-general-Cindy: i'm sure most people still support it
Wed Jun 5 00:14:21 2002-general-jonathan: i think it is definetly questionalbl, especially when it is not clear that a bipolar system would pose any more of a threat to us
Wed Jun 5 00:14:36 2002-general-Cindy: but there's more questioning now of the policies and where it's going simply befcause we're farther away from the emotional shock and anger
Wed Jun 5 00:14:37 2002-general-Julianna: Mel -- yes
Wed Jun 5 00:14:48 2002-general-Julia: Julianna, what is your balance until now of the war against terrorism?
Wed Jun 5 00:15:22 2002-general-Julianna: Mery -- I think that in this community (the university one), most of us are not in favor. However, Bush's popular support still remains high. I suppose that indicates that they are in favor or at least support this war
Wed Jun 5 00:15:23 2002-general-Cindy: mel--i can't say that i feel that most of the people pursuing foreign policy are too attached to realism, because i think you're talking largely about the bush administration
Wed Jun 5 00:15:40 2002-general-Cindy: but i think in general, more politicians do work in realistic manners
Wed Jun 5 00:15:54 2002-general-Cindy: a lot of it is the matter of where your interests lie, at least in internationalr elations
Wed Jun 5 00:15:55 2002-general-Melanie: Yes I am
Wed Jun 5 00:16:06 2002-general-Julianna: Julia -- I am not sure what you mean by balance... can you be more specific?
Wed Jun 5 00:16:52 2002-general-jonathan: cindy the bush people are clearly not realists though, right
Wed Jun 5 00:17:09 2002-general-Cindy: i think the people are more in support of protecting the US and finding those "Responsible" for sept 11th
Wed Jun 5 00:17:09 2002-general-Julia: do you view it has been successful or that it is failing to accomplish its objectives?
Wed Jun 5 00:17:14 2002-general-Mery: But wouldnīt this new direction in the Bush foreign policy be a departure from realism?
Wed Jun 5 00:17:17 2002-general-Cindy: not necessarily supporting bush himself
Wed Jun 5 00:17:36 2002-general-Julianna: Jonathan -- I think that the Bush people are "realists"
Wed Jun 5 00:17:41 2002-general-Cindy: john--i think the bush people are, i was saying that not all of our foreign policy makers are that way
Wed Jun 5 00:17:53 2002-general-Cindy: many mix realism and liberalism together
Wed Jun 5 00:17:58 2002-general-jonathan: but realists would support a bipolar world
Wed Jun 5 00:18:05 2002-general-jonathan: wouldn't they, more stability
Wed Jun 5 00:18:13 2002-general-Cindy: mery--what is the departure?
Wed Jun 5 00:18:19 2002-general-Melanie: Why would you say, Jonnathan, thet they are not realists?
Wed Jun 5 00:18:25 2002-general-Julianna: Julia -- my feelings aside, i do not see many major success of this new war. if anything, it is making people more angry and ressentful - more willing to fit.
Wed Jun 5 00:18:33 2002-general-Cindy: johnathan--some might, some might not
Wed Jun 5 00:19:04 2002-general-Cindy: classical realists look at hegemonic war as deciding a victor to make a stable international system with them in the center
Wed Jun 5 00:19:05 2002-general-Melanie: How do you live, personally, the situation?
Wed Jun 5 00:19:12 2002-general-jonathan: didnt the article state that realist dont believe a unipolar hegemonity can last
Wed Jun 5 00:19:30 2002-general-Julianna: oops --i meant fight
Wed Jun 5 00:19:31 2002-general-jonathan: yet that is what bush's people are pursuing
Wed Jun 5 00:19:34 2002-general-Julianna: not fit
Wed Jun 5 00:19:38 2002-general-Julia: Julianna, so if you thin k the Bush peole are realists, why do they don see as the realists the threat of another super power rising?
Wed Jun 5 00:19:58 2002-general-Cindy: julia and mery--i cannot bring myself to believe that the war on terrorism will end terrorism. if anything, it will make more people resentful and hate us...it will drive more people to terrorism. it's a vicious cycle
Wed Jun 5 00:20:26 2002-general-Mery: in that there seems to be no room for other powers to challenge the US or try to balance it
Wed Jun 5 00:20:36 2002-general-jonathan: isn't a dual hegemonity pretty stable
Wed Jun 5 00:20:36 2002-general-Cindy: julia--because they play along the notion of hegemonic war
Wed Jun 5 00:20:54 2002-general-Cindy: the sept 11th attacks are signs that we're not the most superior country in the world (at least many people think this way)
Wed Jun 5 00:20:56 2002-general-Mery: Cindy, I agree
Wed Jun 5 00:21:15 2002-general-Cindy: jonathan--i don't really remember all theories on realism, sorry...you might be right
Wed Jun 5 00:21:19 2002-general-Julia: Julianna, and do you think the public opinion would support to overthrow Saddam Hussein?
Wed Jun 5 00:21:23 2002-general-Cindy: what you're saying makes sense. *shrugs*
Wed Jun 5 00:21:36 2002-general-jonathan: neither do i
Wed Jun 5 00:22:07 2002-general-Cindy: okay, just to let you guys know, julianna, molly, and i have to leave in 10 minutes
Wed Jun 5 00:22:15 2002-general-Cindy: jon, you can stay longer to chat. ^_^
Wed Jun 5 00:22:21 2002-general-jonathan: i do think we are the most "superior" we're just not invulnerable, no one could be
Wed Jun 5 00:22:21 2002-general-Cindy: you can be the only guy in a room of girls!
Wed Jun 5 00:22:29 2002-general-Cindy: oh wait, you're already a pimp now!
Wed Jun 5 00:22:35 2002-general-Julianna: absolutely -- HUssein is viewed as one of major enemies of the USA
Wed Jun 5 00:22:35 2002-general-jonathan: i must leave soon as well
Wed Jun 5 00:22:50 2002-general-jonathan: you make a very good point cindy
Wed Jun 5 00:23:00 2002-general-Cindy: jon--i agree with you. it's just a shock, because it's never really happened on america soil before, i think, to this wide extent
Wed Jun 5 00:23:05 2002-general-Melanie: don't worry
Wed Jun 5 00:23:20 2002-general-Cindy: well, i think evetnaully people will also start to question the hussein campaign...
Wed Jun 5 00:23:38 2002-general-Cindy: i mean, don't you think if we could have rid ourselves of him, we would've done it back when bush sr. was in power?
Wed Jun 5 00:23:41 2002-general-jonathan: it probably will more if we pursue this policy
Wed Jun 5 00:24:13 2002-general-jonathan: how would getting rid of hussein prevent similar attacks
Wed Jun 5 00:24:24 2002-general-Cindy: i think the iraq deal is separate from the war on terrorism...sure things overlap, but they're separate
Wed Jun 5 00:24:30 2002-general-Cindy: to combine them is lumping things
Wed Jun 5 00:24:51 2002-general-Julia: And if you view the war on terrorism as unsuccessful, what do you think would have been the best response?the best response
Wed Jun 5 00:24:57 2002-general-Cindy: it's just like if we rid ourselves of osama...that won't stop terrorists now from wanting to bomb us or kill us...
Wed Jun 5 00:25:07 2002-general-Cindy: to attack us and undermine our superiority....
Wed Jun 5 00:25:12 2002-general-jonathan: what threat does iraq pose, idont really know
Wed Jun 5 00:25:20 2002-general-Cindy: julia--i wish i had the best answer for you, but i don't
Wed Jun 5 00:25:24 2002-general-Cindy: if i did, i would be president!!
Wed Jun 5 00:25:39 2002-general-Cindy: i think i would call for a retaliation of some sort
Wed Jun 5 00:25:49 2002-general-Cindy: what kind of policy and program and retaliation...i don't know
Wed Jun 5 00:26:14 2002-general-Cindy: but i know a response was required, if not by the american citizens, then by the fact that america needs to be seen as being able to stand up for itself.
Wed Jun 5 00:26:32 2002-general-Julianna: I dont' know. However, I would not have started a war. I think that I would have attempted to find those responsible and hold them accountable rather than attacking people who are not primarily involved.
Wed Jun 5 00:26:36 2002-general-jonathan: i've always believed we should start acceding to some of their demands, rahter than retaliate
Wed Jun 5 00:26:42 2002-general-Julia: And do you view Arafat as a terrorist or as a leader with whom to negotiate?
Wed Jun 5 00:26:42 2002-general-Cindy: targeting afghanistan, osama bin laden, and the al-queda are very good MARKETING techniques of identifying enemies...
Wed Jun 5 00:26:48 2002-general-jonathan: standing up for ourselves won't really faze them
Wed Jun 5 00:26:53 2002-general-Cindy: by that extent, you can set specific goals to acheive.
Wed Jun 5 00:27:15 2002-general-Cindy: however, it doesn't lie with the fact that a vague war on terrorism isn't acheiveable!!!!
Wed Jun 5 00:27:20 2002-general-Cindy: i mean, we don't even know what the hell it is!
Wed Jun 5 00:27:39 2002-general-Cindy: i would not have declared a prolonged war
Wed Jun 5 00:27:46 2002-general-Cindy: perhaps a long-term security plan....
Wed Jun 5 00:27:53 2002-general-jonathan: i think we have to acknowledge arafat, whether we are fans of him or not
Wed Jun 5 00:27:58 2002-general-Cindy: but that doesn't necesssarily mean "kill terrorists"
Wed Jun 5 00:28:19 2002-general-jonathan: i dont think we can ever come close to eliminating the threat he and others pose
Wed Jun 5 00:28:22 2002-general-Cindy: julia--i'm not as well versed in the israeli-palestinian conflict as you, i bet
Wed Jun 5 00:28:34 2002-general-Julianna: Negotiate wtih Arafat. I think. Oh yeah -- I agree with JOn in that we also need to start examining WHY people would be so angry with us to begin with. Stop the problem -- don't just put a bandaid on it!
Wed Jun 5 00:28:46 2002-general-Cindy: but i do think that arafat definitely is someone to negotiate and contend with simply because he has so much support.
Wed Jun 5 00:29:09 2002-general-Cindy: right now at least, he's not making official plans to and statements to exterminate some race...
Wed Jun 5 00:29:11 2002-general-Cindy: (i think)
Wed Jun 5 00:29:45 2002-general-Julia: Anmd do you agree with the 400,000 millions dollars that you spend in defense?
Wed Jun 5 00:30:39 2002-general-Mery: what do you think on this incease on the defend budget?
Wed Jun 5 00:30:43 2002-general-Cindy: i don't.
Wed Jun 5 00:31:32 2002-general-Mery: sorrry, defense buget
Wed Jun 5 00:31:51 2002-general-jonathan: alright my screen went blank and i have to meet with my group anyway, so iguess i'll leave, i'll talk to you guys later
Wed Jun 5 00:31:56 2002-general-Cindy: i think we spent too much on it!!!
Wed Jun 5 00:32:09 2002-general-Julia: Cindy, in fact Arafat hasn got so much support since he gave the men Israel wanted in interchange for a stop of his bunker siege. The young guard of palestinians don see him as a legitimate representative.
Wed Jun 5 00:32:12 2002-general-Cindy: i'd spend some, i don't know how much, but i wouldn't give that unlimited spending
Wed Jun 5 00:32:13 2002-general-Melanie: Do you, as american citizens feel the increase in security?
Wed Jun 5 00:32:14 2002-general-||||||||| jonathan just logged off.
Wed Jun 5 00:32:17 2002-general-Julianna: Too mcuh $ on defense. Not enough on social programs like education and heatlh care
Wed Jun 5 00:32:29 2002-general-Cindy: sept 11 happened not because we didn't have enough killing weapons to kill terrorists...
Wed Jun 5 00:32:37 2002-general-Cindy: what makes them think amassing more of those are going to help?
Wed Jun 5 00:32:45 2002-general-Cindy: i don't feel that much safer
Wed Jun 5 00:32:53 2002-general-Julianna: Hey - it has been fun, but I HAVE to go (to the bathroom and our group meeting!).
Good luck with everything. Julianna
Wed Jun 5 00:33:23 2002-general-Mery: Nice talking to you, good luck with your meeting!!
Wed Jun 5 00:33:26 2002-general-Cindy: julia--i see what you mean, charismatic leaders will always lose support when they become "soft" (negotiate)
Wed Jun 5 00:33:28 2002-general-Julia: Do you live with the fear of other attack?
Wed Jun 5 00:33:32 2002-general-Cindy: but who else can we negotiate with?
Wed Jun 5 00:33:35 2002-general-Melanie: Bye!
Wed Jun 5 00:33:53 2002-general-Cindy: do i live in fear?
Wed Jun 5 00:33:54 2002-general-Cindy: no.
Wed Jun 5 00:34:06 2002-general-Cindy: do i fear another terrorist attack on the US?
Wed Jun 5 00:34:07 2002-general-Cindy: yes.
Wed Jun 5 00:34:38 2002-general-Melanie: I Is that the general perception?
Wed Jun 5 00:34:40 2002-general-Julia: yeah, Cindy, when Arafat negotiated his liberty for some terrorists wanted by Sharon, he lost support, he lost so much that he annonced elections...
Wed Jun 5 00:35:14 2002-general-Cindy: melanie--i don't know if that's the general perception, but that's my perception.
Wed Jun 5 00:35:52 2002-general-Melanie: Bye Cindy and Julianna, take care! Julia and Mery, see you tomorrow!
Wed Jun 5 00:35:53 2002-general-Julia: Do you think the US must pressure for a cease of fire in the palestinian arb conflict?
Wed Jun 5 00:35:56 2002-general-Cindy: julia--in terms of arafat and israel...it's such a mess.....i can't see how arafat would've gotten out of that situation otherwise, by what you're saying.
Wed Jun 5 00:36:14 2002-general-Cindy: he can't really do much for palestine anymore if he's being trapped
Wed Jun 5 00:36:21 2002-general-Cindy: bye melanie!!
Wed Jun 5 00:36:22 2002-general-Cindy: nice talking to you
Wed Jun 5 00:36:38 2002-general-Mery: See you guys later!!!
Wed Jun 5 00:36:56 2002-general-Melanie: Bye, it was nice talking to you too
Wed Jun 5 00:37:06 2002-general-||||||||| Melanie just logged off.
Wed Jun 5 00:37:09 2002-general-Cindy: julia--i don't know if the US has to do that...i don't know the extent. but i can say that the US has been trying to bring about a peaceful resolution between the palestinians and the israelis for a long time....
Wed Jun 5 00:37:10 2002-general-Julia: Bye Mery
Wed Jun 5 00:37:13 2002-general-Cindy: and they're still fighting.....
Wed Jun 5 00:37:47 2002-general-Cindy: sorry, julia, you probably are much more informed than i am about the middle east conflict
Wed Jun 5 00:38:04 2002-general-Julia: yes, but the visits of Cheney, of Zinny, of -Powell have all been unsuccessful, and vioplence has not ceased...
Wed Jun 5 00:38:12 2002-general-Cindy: what i know is just tidbits of info i've picked up all my life
Wed Jun 5 00:38:25 2002-general-Cindy: (being that the situation has gone on long before i was born)
Wed Jun 5 00:38:46 2002-general-Cindy: that's true, they haven't stopped, and violence has increased.
Wed Jun 5 00:38:53 2002-general-Julia: Cindy, perhaps I talking too much of the palestinian arb conflict because I a fan of it...
Wed Jun 5 00:39:23 2002-general-Cindy: i think it's possible also because many people view the bush administration as favoring the israelis more than the clinton administration (despite telling israel to "stop being so aggressive")....
Wed Jun 5 00:39:40 2002-general-Cindy: julia--i think it's very interesting, and i'm sorry i can't be a better conversation partner about it
Wed Jun 5 00:40:05 2002-general-Julia: Is there someone of your mates that is going to do her/his thesis in the conflict?
Wed Jun 5 00:40:08 2002-general-Cindy: i wish i was more informed about a conflict that is so important and has been going on for a long time
Wed Jun 5 00:40:14 2002-general-Cindy: many people see it as a starting point for WWIII
Wed Jun 5 00:40:34 2002-general-Cindy: i don't know...but i don't think there's anyone who's going to be doing it on the middle east situation
Wed Jun 5 00:41:09 2002-general-Cindy: well, julia, it's been just wonderful chatting with you!!
Wed Jun 5 00:41:18 2002-general-Cindy: i'm sorry, but i have to go now to a meeting fo r apresentation i have to do tomorrow
Wed Jun 5 00:41:21 2002-general-Cindy: i hope we keep in touch
Wed Jun 5 00:41:26 2002-general-Julia: Cindy, you still are very smart and I have lots of fun chatting with you
Wed Jun 5 00:41:32 2002-general-Cindy: i feel like i've talked to you the most out of all of your classmates!
Wed Jun 5 00:41:41 2002-general-Cindy: please feel free to email me anytime!
Wed Jun 5 00:41:42 2002-general-Cindy:
Wed Jun 5 00:41:49 2002-general-Cindy: good luck with your thesis and everything!
Wed Jun 5 00:42:02 2002-general-Julia: Cindy, for me also it been wonderful chatting with you!!!
Wed Jun 5 00:42:19 2002-general-||||||||| Cindy just logged off.
Wed Jun 5 00:42:25 2002-general-Julia: You can also e-mail me whwnever you want!!