Interviews

Roshni: To start the interview, like most interviews, just for the record, why don’t you tell us more about yourself, like whatever you think that we would wanna know or whatever you wanna share?

Jason de León: Sure, I am Jason de León. I am an anthropologist at University of Michigan. I am a classically trained archaeologist who jumped ship about 10 years ago to try to understand various issues related to undocumented migration. And I currently direct a project called “Undocumented Immigration Project” this is an interdisciplinary attempt to understand clandestin movement between Latin America and the United States.

Roshni: That leads directly into the next question: you started studying stone tools, and I was wondering what made you/what event made you shift your focus into migrants?

Jason de León: Yeah, I think I have always been interested in border issues ‘cause I grew up in South Texas. It had always been something I was interested in, that had been in my orbit not really for research purposes but something that had impacted my life. When I started doing archaeological work in Mexico in the early 2000s, I started to develop relationships with a lot of folks who were local labors who were required to work on excavations. And many of the folks that I worked with were people who had migrated to the United States undocumented and who had really kind of difficult, if not traumatic experiences during the border crossing process. And this particular guy I had met in 2004, named Victor Baldio, who he was kind of the first person who told me a story about trying to cross the Arizona desert, almost dying and going through all kinds of horrible things before being apprehended by police and deported. It was kind of his story that got me thinking about border crossing and potential thing to study and then the next several years I was doing more archaeology in Mexico meeting more folks like that. I think in 2007, I had met a guy in Vera Cruz, Mexico doing dissertation work and he was someone who I’d become very close … We just got along so well but he was getting ready to migrate, and I got super concerned about his safety because I’d learned about all these things about what could go wrong, and thinking about what could potentially happen to him; and it really scared me. And when I finished my dissertation in 2008, by that point I had become less interested in stuff that was coming out of the ground in excavations and much more interested in these people I was getting to know during these projects. I just kind of decided, well, my heart is in these other things so I just had to figure out a way to reinvent myself and how to use anthropology to understand this process. But I think that it was probably those two guys especially.

Roshni: Are you still in contact with them?

Jaso de León: Not really. I saw Victor maybe 6-7 years ago and then (my friend), I don’t know where he is now, but I still sort of friends that are guys from his hometown. But he’s someone who wouldn’t be a Facebook. So I sort of hear of him through other folks. But, you know, someone who I’ve thought about him quite a bit, I look for him a few times, but with little success.

Roshni: that’s really interesting, thank you for sharing that.

Leah: in your Land of Open Graves, why did you combine the four fields of anthropology (forensic, linguistic, ethnographic, archaeology) all together?

Jason de León: you know, none of that was planned. I sort of started the project thinking about archaeology and how I could use it to understand migration in relation to ethnography. And then the linguistic stuff happened as I was doing the interviews and looking at the federal documents, thinking about language use as a piece of data to bring in. And the forensic stuff started to happen because I was increasing having these encounters with stories of death or encountering deceased people in the desert and then thinking, okay this is a part of the story that I want to be able to tell but it’s gonna require forensic work. And when I was an undergraduate at UCLA, one of the big things that I was trained to think was that anthropology is a forefield discipline. And that historically we’ve had moments where those four fields have worked together closely. And I was taught early on that we don’t really do that anymore. It took me a while to realize that I’d been sold this idea that wasn’t being done in practice. But I always kind of believed in. When this project started to happen, with these different elements, it was just a really natural, kind of organic thing. Like I was doing archaeology and doing ethnography and those were working together nicely. And I started thinking about the linguistic stuff and started getting more into that. And then the forensic stuff was just one day of me being really frustrated that there wasn’t much written about the people who were dying. So I just went to see if I could take a crash course in forensics and then bring it into this discussion. But in the beginning, I definitely was not thinking about those four fields, I was really just thinking about archaeology and ethnography.

Roshni: so going off of that, so you talk about this interdisciplinary approach to understanding the issue of and in the broader context of human right/, what role do you think interdisciplinary role can have in understanding to push human rights cases and to advance human rights?

Jadon de León: I think we live in a world where we recognize that you can’t tell a story with one approach. There are so many different pieces to it and we should just be using whatever is necessary and helpful. Though for me, this was interdisciplinary thinking comes out of frustration with being in one field or subfield of anthropology. So I think that now we know that it’s powerful and that brings all these pieces together. And we see it. In examples around the globe and with human rights it’s a way to give us more information about this process, this crisis but also it’s a way to present it in kinda new and I think maybe challenging ways. So being interdisciplinary is just kind of cute. We do it because it makes the whole endeavor more powerful. And it can tell a story that people think they already know all about in a different way if you present it to them as (fiction?), as art, as photography, as some mix of those things. For me that really gives away to get peoples attention and to think about this stuff. ‘Cause I think this stuff, relying on these old methods is the same story you’ve been told and are probably going to ignore. But when it’s presented to them in a new kind of way, it’s like, oh, wait, I don’t know what to do with this now. And for me that’s really exciting because we can produce these new, cool hybrids and that where u get really excited about my work.

Leah: what been your most eye opening experience?

Jason de León: I think from one of the most difficult things has been working with the families of the missing. And realizing that there’s nothing I can do. I mean, whatever little work I’m doing for the greater causes is a drop in the bucket and for a lot of these folks, there will be no closure, ever. And that was a really eye opening thing to see these families that I know will forever be traumatized by this thing, and never resolve itself and feeling totally powerless. There’s nothing that I can do. I can talk about it, try to produce new kinds of data to shed light of this but someone like Jose (tech goo dy, look at book) and write about it in the book. I’m not going to be able to find him. I’ve been trying but his family will likely suffer for the rest of their lives not knowing what happened to him. And to know that he’s one of thousands of people that are in the same kind of predicament that’s really hard.

Tony: could I jump in with a question? ‘Cause you guys are really concerned with forensic anthropology and the missing people in the 1980s, and the dirty wars and the disappearances. I’m wondering, Jason do you think talking about the missing and the Disappeared, see any connection with the previous round of violence and the role of anthropologists to respond to that violence?

Jason de León: yeah, I mean I think that it’s  impossible to not see the connection between the Disappeared in Central America, and the Disappeared in the Mediterranean right now, and other places where bodies are just never going to be found. You know, I think about, for me it’s the same type of political violence the (eye of teen yah pa) in many ways parallels between what happens in the deserts. They are the result of these political processes that manifest themselves in different ways and I think it’s important to see those connections. And one of the things that I really like recently, is working with the forensic folks, there seems to be a new breed of forensic anthropologists coming out now and that is a lot more politically aware so it’s not just in doing the work because it’s important humanitarian work, but I’m doing this forensic work as a way of making things politically visible. So it’s like forensic scientists as political activism as well. That is something that we are really starting to see and people are trying to draw all these connections historically which is, for me, really exciting because right now, you know, honestly forensic science is for me a bit antiquated within the kind of, they have not had the sort of truly reflexive moment in anthropology. They are still very much using categories of race in very problematic ways, still very much thinking of themselves as empirical approach that has little to do with politics that’s not the case we know it’s not the case. There’s this new kind of movement of people and a lot of women of color working in forensic, who when I talk to them I see this forensic science as form of political activism which is a radically different way of thinking then what we seen historically. Which for me is super exciting about the shift in the discipline.

Tony: (whisper) One or two more questions

Leah: what’s something you want to be remembered for?

Jason de León: you know I think for me, it’s that I worked really hard to facilitate the work of others. I think it something I want to be remembered for, that benefited so much from people mentoring me and helping me to sort of find my way. I think for me that’s an enormous part of the work that’s to be able to work with students, collaborators and to help them kind of find their way too. Though I think I want to be remembered for my mentor ship with folks and hoping to help them figure out how to find their place in the world in anthropology or whatever occupation they decide to pursue. I want to be remembered for someone who really tried to facilitate that work. And a lot of the stuff we do, I think about as true collaboration with the students, whether Ira working on honors thesis, working in my lab, or coming to field. I try to bring in a lot of folks who benefit from the sort of collaborations and take it and go off into the world.

Roshni: Tony has told you a bit about our project, and what we’re looking into, and I was just wondering what advice do you have for us, as undergraduates looking for little bit of research to help shed light on the disappeared people in Guatemala and Latin America.

Jason de León: you know I think with this work, you just have to be proactive and find the kind of people who were support you in this stuff. Because I think that there’s always this misconception that undergraduates can’t do independent research. And I know that not to be true. And I think that you guys just have to find people that will support you, and help facilitate the work and you have to be confident to that you can go out and do this stuff. And people what are you do you can’t do that and those are people that you don’t need to be talking to. Finding a good support network saying this is what I want to do, how do I get these experiences, how do I work on these kinds of project? And be confident then you can do it. And is just a matter of finding the constellation of people that can help you do this sort of stuff. And I think people recognize if you are committed to these things, have the energy to do it. I think a lot of folks pick up on that and go, alright, how can I help? Cause that worked for me. People saw me as that Kind of the eager beaver,  and just go ahead and do it. And my students now, you know the ones that come to me and you can see early on that she’s going to do this no matter what so I want to be on the ground helping to facilitate this. So I think that if you Bring that energy and commitment to folks, if they’re good mentors, they will find ways to help you realize, it’s finding those kind of people. And knowing you can do this, having the confidence in what you are doing. There are all those moments of self doubt about this stuff, and that’s a natural thing, but at the end of the day this is what you wanna do, there’s nothing stopping you. There are lots of good people out there who want to help.

Friday April 27th: Professor Angelina Godoy

Gwen: Before discussing, we should explain to her our project, perhaps show her the website as well, just so she can get an idea of what we are aiming to do.

Madison: Is there anything would would recommend for us to explore/dive deeper into?

Angelina Godoy: Children given in adoption, organization that works with them Liga Guatemalteca de Higiene Mental. Mostly cases of orphaned children adopted by military personnel (sometimes as actual child or as “servant”). Assumed they were orphaned, no effort given to find the family. Many children who are found are surprised to find out that they came from this troubled past.

Madison: Access to testimonies?

Angelina Godoy: Shoah foundation, based in LA, videos of survivors of the genocide. Major project to document world survivors before they die.

Madison: Would it be possible to interview Hector Recinos?

Angelina Godoy: Message me. He’s pretty busy.

Madison: Do you know of any projects happening now?

Angelina Godoy: There is the case of the disappearance of 14 year old boy that is now working its way through Guatemalan courts. Jo-Marie Burt at George Mason University is very involved with the court case. International Justice Monitor is reporting on the Guatemala Trials and there is the Molina-Theissen case.

Madison: How can people get involved?

Angelina Godoy: You can talk to Norma Cruz, Sobrevivientes. I know her work but have not worked with her or talked to her. You can also reach out to organizations that are working on HR issues in Guatemala (Nisgua) There is also a board member in LSJ (Phil) who is not currently focusing on disappearances but has in the past. They may have suggestions.

What are some contemporary organizations focusing on current issues (poverty, lack of services)?

Angelina Godoy: Wuqu Kawoq is one. Its board members in the US (one lives in Seattle). It is focused on health in Mayan communities and is very active on facebook and social media. Another one is Proyecto Intercambio, which made a documentary on Wuqu Kawoq and wanted to come to air this documentary at the UW.

Madison: What got you interested in this topic?

Angelina Godoy: I was personally because my mother’s family is from Columbia and my uncle was killed when I was in college, which was shocking and upsetting and got me interested in HR. As a result of this, I got a job at Amnesty International and wanted to focus on Columbia, but Amnesty had a policy which says that I can’t work in your own country (due to conflict of interest). I started looking at Guatemala right as the civil war ended. I wanted to help but I had limited background. I booked a trip to further understand Guatemala and meet people who are worked on amazing projects. I worked on Guatemala for about 15 years before shifting to El Salvador. I met so many people that I admired for their courage who were tackling such deep issues.I switched to El Salvador because the Human Rights Center group I was a part of noticed that a lot of work was happening in Guatemala but less happening in El Salvador. There was the potential to make more of a difference with modest resources in El Salvador. Bigger organizations and better funded organizations were in Guatemala.

Madison: What have you done to get involved? When you worked in Guatemala what did you do specifically?

Angelina Godoy: When I just started working there, I went there for summer by herself. About a year after that I got to be part of an Amnesty International research mission. I met a HR lawyer who took me into her office and showed me how her door was covered in letters of support form other Amnesty officials. She expressed how much these meant to her, how they may have saved her life. This showed Godoy how it can seem like the petitions/letter writing campaigns may seem meaningless but actually have huge impact on people. This is an example of a super courageous person who fights even though they have these situations of extreme risks (belief that justice must be done).

Madison: What are some sources you find important/interesting?

Angelina Godoy: The UN truth commissions report. The horrors are so deeply documented and close to people’s experiences. I also really like Finding Oscar. Propublica did a series on reporting connected to it as well as This American Life (podcast). It tells the whole history of the war through this one story (people adopted as children). You can also read the stories of people who were children during the war and were affected by it in many different ways, particularly following of these kids over time. Another good source is “When we were young there was a war”- you can view the stories at  www.centralamericanstories.com

Madison: What are some pioneer movements going on (groups/communities involved)? Both locally and internationally?

Angelina Godoy: Pioneering is what is happening in Guatemala right now. There is a weird mix of all these negatives but also huge strides forward in justice that most other countries have not achieved.

Madison: Who else would you recommend we interview?

Angelina Godoy: Phil Neff (board of Nisgua) philneff@uw.edu worked as an accompanier. That’s a way that people can get involved.

Madison: Do you have any tips for an undergraduate student who would like to pursue further academic involvement in genocides and Latin America? Are there any resources that you would recommend to such students?

Angelina Godoy: One good way is having an event. You can tie it to a class to boost attendance.

Madison: What is some current work you are doing?

Angelina Godoy: I am traveling to El Salvador to work on the El Mozote case.

1. What were the biggest barriers to get information?
   1. Language
      1. UN had 600 interpreters
2. When you were partaking in the interviews what were you thinking?
   1. Privileged to be able to listen to these experiences
   2. Indigenous, spanish, english translation
   3. He verified that what they were doing was ok
3. What have you done in regards to the disappearances in Guatemala?
   1. Accompanied program (he didn’t participate but is still very important)
      1. Gang searches for disappeared
      2. Guatemalan Mutual Support
      3. People investigating the disappearances began disappearing
      4. International Peace brigades
      5. Foreigner in every household 24/7 so if death squad comes to take someone there would be in international person in the house, results in fewer abductions
      6. All villages have foreigners with refugees
      7. Accompaniers spend 6 months in boring place so people start sharing their stories, this inspired testimonies
      8. Present day example: opposition to dam being built
4. What interests you about forensic anthropology?
   1. Family lived in Guatemala
   2. Been to 200 anthropological sites
   3. 12 countries
   4. First place he went was Central America
5. How did victim’s families react to the testimonies?
   1. Only surviving family members
   2. “They took my mom, dad and we all ran into the jungle”
   3. “People survived because we heard there were massacres so we decided to run away”
   4. Actual encounter with army was nill, shot at when they passed border into Mexico, shot at them not to come back
6. Favorite memory in Guatemala?
   1. Archaeology is why he goes
      1. Likes going to remote places by helicopter or mule
      2. Stuff is buried
      3. Sees things that were unseen, very ancient
   2. Likes the Indians because he’s a student of their history
   3. Mule trip
      1. Mule ran away with expensive stuff
      2. Indians bring back mule and all the equipment
      3. Returned everything
      4. Why? Brand on mule. Mule belonged to head of chiqulera union
      5. Recognized that they must know some very important people
   4. In remote areas, the investigator has to have connection with the community
      1. Need 200 people to shovel around period, go to the community and get the members to help you
      2. Reminder of when Americans leave, the Indians have to go back to their old ways and often get killed over it
      3. Hear stories about people getting killed when working with foreign archaeologists
7. Most meaningful thing about Guatemala?
   1. They know that they are part of a larger world
   2. Overthrow of government
      1. Indians are wild and dangerous
      2. “If they become communist we’re all going to die” ideology
      3. He worked with church mission of where nuns were killed in 1980s
8. We were able to look at the photo compilation you created. Did you partake in any of exhumations that you had photographed? If so, what was it like?
   1. No he never partook in an exhumation
   2. Those are photos from other people
   3. He took photos of the churches and hospitals
9. Are you doing anything currently with Guatemala?
   1. Gives money
   2. Tells his stories
   3. His educational foundation
      1. Has organization in Guatemala, Belize that puts Indian’s through school
      2. Graduate from school and delivers babies, asked for additional support
      3. Vincent Phillips Foundation
      4. 6 students who have completed medical school
      5. All Indians
      6. Girls gravitate to OBGYN
      7. Guys: surgeon, cardiologist, primary care
      8. $1000 per year to support the girl, now it’s limited
      9. Would love to come and speak about the program *Good way to get people involved*
      10. Train locals to be like nurse practitioners, work in community clinic and realize how little the people know about their bodies, could be done in places today

Notes from Interview:

• Police Archives abandoned
• “Guatemala Memory of Silence”
• Photojournalists (Jean Marie Simmons)
• Dr. Snow
  • Met him in 1999
  • Worked with ?Rick Burla? Previously
  • Called and spoke to Jerry Snow
  • Sat in on interview of the people
  • Went to refugee camps
  • Women only spoke ?Chu?
  • Recordings of testimonies
  • Original attraction to Guatemala
  • Enjoyed seeing Mayan people in traditional culture
• Guatemalan problems
  • Complain of Anthropologists robbing graves from Native Americans
  • More skeletons of Native Americans that have been measured than any other race
• Freddy P.
  • Dr. Snow trained people like him
  • Don’t want to start them in their own country
  • Send them out internationally
  • He went to Bosnia
  • Hired by the church
• “Witnesses from the Grave”
  • Precomputer
  • PreDNA
  • Investigate plane crashes
• Connection between Dr. King and Dr. Snow
  • Want to find children and grandchildren
  • 1984-1985
  • Blood baking technique
  • Connect live grandchildren to grandparents
  • Discuss skeletons
  • DNA not yet fully developed
  • Reunite some of the families
  • He worked with this when we was in blood bank, worked with bone marrow
• “Guatemala Never Again book”
  • DNA left behind by Colonel and Major
• Secret Police Torture Manual
  • Death Squad in Guatemala in 1984
  • Diary of people that they picked up and disappeared them
  • 250 people
  • Still trouble finding them
  • Strike in Plantation area of Guatemalan coast in 1980
  • Document people and why they were picked up
  • Mass grave
  • Cambodians
  • “Serial Killer Scenario”-abandoned place, need to get rid of bodies quitely where no one goes
  • Bodies all laid out
  • Clyde Snow had to go after clandestine cemeteries
  • Similar to John Wayne Gacy
• Work with medical cases
  • Talk to army in the morning, Guerillas at night
  • Work with man who lost an ear due to army demanding to be taken to the guerilla doctors
  • Avoided hostility between army and guerillas
    • Saw Guerillas killed on the spot
  • Army never questioned him about his conduct with guerillas
    • He is there to speak with nuns
    • He’s a visiting doctor, he’s a veteran, has passport, went by the proper conduct
• Helps to know about remote rulings
  • Don’t talk about ruins or you’ll be seen as a tourist
  • Know everything about the terrain
• ACUL film
  • VHS tape
  • Exhumation
  • Indian’s discussing the conditions
• 253-428-0120 Home phone number
  • In Tacoma
• PBS Program about 13,000 year old 13 year old, reconstructionation
  • DNA alone may not mean very much
  • Need assemblance of the victim